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Well, I've got to reconsider my finish on these coco guitars. I love EM 6000, but I want a true water white finish with no blue. Ideas?

I am considering nitro, though not water white, love it's warmth and workability.

Mike

Enduro-Var.
I like the slight amber tint, and it's great to work with.
6000 I've not used (can't get here) but I believe the blue tint is dealt with by keeping the individual coats thin.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Is this the one?

https://generalfinishes.com/professiona ... enduro-var

Which did you use, the flat, satin, semi-glaoss, or gloss. Spray or brush? Pictures?

I tried Polywhey and the finish was wheey too blhue in sunlight. I love nitro, but can't use it.

James

I use Enduro-Var for kitchen cabinets. It looks more like an oil based finish than other WB products.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Most WB finishes are going to have a bluish cast over darker woods. That's just the chemistry of things. Nitro is one option, but as you know not water white. For a truly water white coating you will need to look at catalyzed lacquers (either pre or post cat systems) or a two part urethane. Make sure you use the system specific sealer if you decide to go one of these routes. Keep in mind that a maximum of 5 mils dry film build is all you are allowed with these. Putting them down thicker will lead to issues and film failure.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Research KTM-SV .... it's been talked about here in the past. (Water based NON-acrylic varnish, so no blue)

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Dave
Milton, ON

I know of one high end maker that has been using "General Finishes" Enduro amber tinted varnish for the last two years.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Yes, General Finishes, Enduro-Var I tried the gloss, sprayed, pictures here http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=40344&hilit=monster#p529933
A more close up of my OLF SJ's back after buffing here download/file.php?id=39223

Yes Ken, I believe you may be talking about Laurent Brondel
I posted previously that Laurent Brondel had been using it on his Essentials range, his comments in this thread, close to the bottom of the page. http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285606&page=3
There's a Brondel build pics here with Enduro-Var finish http://lblutherie.blogspot.co.uk/2013/1 ... ascar.html
I didn't see a hint of blue tinge anywhere, his or mine.
As I said before it seems 6000 (and other WB) coats should be sprayed relatively thin to prevent the blue haze.
Mine were a maximum 2 mill thick, wet coat.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I will look at this tonight, I cannot see AGF photos at work.

Mike

Could you please specifiy actual, obtainable products? And, by "post" I assume you mean UV, eg?

Thanks!

Mike

I have found with em6000 the mill gauge is your friend. Makeall the wet coats around 3 mills and it still flows out without blue that I can see. I spray about 15 coats on the back, with almost no need to level.

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

I have used KTM-SV and it is a good looking finish with no blue tint. It does not burn in coat to coat, so there is no fudge room for how level the surface is. If you sand through the last coat you will see witness lines. They do almost buff out ...

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

That's one of the good things about my experience with Enduro-Var, any witness lines appearing after sanding just vanished with buffing.
Same with any CA fills/fixes. Scrape level, sand and buff.
I can't say how refinishing/touch-ups after a long time will be, but I refinished the headstock 5/6 weeks after spraying (sanded through), and it just buffed in nicely with the original finish on the neck.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

What is the difference between pre- and post-cat varnishes?

pre the manufacture incorporates the catalyst at the point of manufacturing. Limits the shelf life.

Post the requires the addition of the catalyst after the manufacturing of the finish. Once added the clock starts ticking on the shelf life. Still a month or so of shelf life.

conversion varnish catalyst added at time of use by end user.

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

Most pre cats I have dealt with had a shelf life of 90 days. There is no chemistry to mess with as the supplier has added the catalyst. Post cat you mix what you need as you need it. Generally once the catalyst is added you will have a pot life of something like 2-6 hours depending on brand and type to use the material.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Since the Enduro types do not burn into each other, how many coats to achieve desired thickness, and how much time between coats? Should I use an Enduro sealer over the epoxy level & pore fill?

There is a finishing thread here with a schedule http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?102732-Enduro-var-my-new-refinish-experience
There was a recommended schedule from some "experts" mentioned somewhere through Gen Finishes website I can't find at the moment. something like sealing with a couple of coats of EV, sanding flat, the 3 coats, 1 hr between each, then level. Repeat, leave for a week and then level sand to P 1500, buff merzena med and fine, I'll see if I can find it later.

IIRC, schedule I used was 2 coats 1 lb cut shellac first (wiped on) over a z-epoxy pore fill (B & S + Rosette only)
Two coats EV 1 hour between them, then leave 3 hours and level sand dry to P400
Then 3 coats EV diluted with 5-10% alcohol, leave a couple of hours between coats, leave overnight.
Again level sand P400 dry.
Then another 3 coats EV diluted with 5-10% alcohol, leave a couple of hours between coats, leave at least a week (I had to wait a month because I was away working)
I level sanded starting P400 up to P1500 dry, then buffed merzena medium/fine/extra fine.
Each coat of EV was about 2.5-3 mil wet
Now, I will say actually I did more coats than this schedule due to a bit of playing about because I had problems setting up my new gun for the first time and getting the feel of sanding the enduro-var (it goes really quite easily) but I reckon the number of final coats were about 8-9 max total.
Hope that is of some use, google search may turn up more suggestion?

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Wow. All those coats and level sanding. And u never sanded through a layer?

Mike, perhaps you misunderstood?
2 coats, sand, 3 coats, sand level, 3 coats, wait 1 week, sand level/buff. So 3 x sandings.
And yes, I sanded through layers (this was my first time gloss finishing)
Even during the final sanding.
Witness lines - Yes, I had several quite obvious ones, and thought it was a disaster at first.
But when I buffed, the witness lines vanished.
Even with a magnifying glass in all light conditions I just could not find any.
As i said earlier, even a headstock finish repair done in exasperation 5/6 weeks after the supposedly final coats were blended in with a light sand P800/1000 and buffing medium/fine compounds. No witness lines.
Maybe a bit of heat from buffing helped??

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Colin, thanks for sharing your experience with the Enduro-Var. Apologies if you have answered this already and I missed it, but how hard have you found the Enduro-Var to be? I seem to remember you commenting a while back that it felt a bit soft when tested with a finger nail. What are your thoughts now after using the product for a while?

Hi Charlie. I remember that.
Yes at the time I was a little disappointed, but the finish was only a couple of months old, and the spruce on the top could be dented with a firm fingernail.
Bit silly really, but on reflection there was only a maximum of maybe 3/3.5 thou of finish after buffing.
I sold the guitar a couple of months ago, but checked it again after 6 or 8 months from buffing - I could drag a fingernail back and forwards over the finish without it leaving a scratch.
If you use my link above to see Laurent's comments on it, he says
I know varnish is not exactly renowned for its hardness, but that can't be bad.
I may not be able to rely on my own tiny experience with finishes, but I have the utmost respect for Laurent Brondel's.

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Thanks Colin, that's good to hear. I missed that comment from Laurent so thank you for posting it. I just ordered a quart of the Enduro-Var gloss on Amazon so I can give it a try. Thanks again for the info.

Sorry I can't be of more help, and good luck.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

You've been very helpful, Colin. Much appreciated.